Wannabe NASCAR Chasers
Posted on Jan 09, 2009 under xn--zqqs84h3is.com | editA little further down the road I was mostly alone and kicked it up about 5 mph over the limit when I saw some vehicles RAPIDLY approaching me from the rear. The blew by me on that same narrow road like I was sitting still, causing me to end up putting the right tires off the road in the wet mud.
Another incident, one chaser quickely stopped DEAD in front of me so fast I nearly hit them, and I had some distance on them. Why did they stop? To turn into a little driveway. NO SIGNALING THEIR INTENT WHATSOEVER!
The final incident I was approaching an intersection that had a pretty good sized road crossing it. The cross traffic had stop signs (the BIG signs) and my road did not. I saw this chaser car coming from the right and realized he wasn't going to stop and slammed on my brakes skidding to a stop barely missing him as he blew through the stop sign and intersection. Had I not been watching him, he would have t-boned and likely killed me!
I went on down the road but was somewhat shaken up by that last incident, and it was getting late in the day, I finally decided it was just getting too dangerous with that sort of driving I was going to give it up. I turned around and headed back west, noticed a tower going up to the west. I went back just short of that same intersection and stopped, hoping the setting sun would make a good photo with that tower building.
While I was sitting there I saw a group of chase cars come blowing through that same stop sign a that intersection and never even slowed down.
All of these cars were CLEARLY chase cars. Decked out with antennas and/or stickers. All had OK plates, however things happened so fast I didn't get any plates. They are lucky I didn't or didn't have my video camera on. If I recognized them I would be calling you out here right now. You guys know who you are, you could have killed me a half a dozen times with your stupid NASCAR wannabe driving skills.
This crap HAS TO STOP people!
Storm Chasing with Safety, Courtesy, and Responsibility
by
Charles A. Doswell III
National Severe Storms Laboratory
I speed a little, on occasion if the driving conditions and roads allow it. I've gotten a ticket for it before, and paid up because I risked the ticket and deserved it.
But flat out running people off the road, running up people's asses and blowing stop signs like that is only going to result in a fatal collision one of these days.
And I forgot one other thing....
Earlier on, there was a school bus approaching about to stop, and activated it's amber alternating flashers to indicate it was about to stop and let kids out. I stopped for the bus about 50 yards back. 3 dark colored smaller chaser cars with OK plates that were behind me, went around me and passed the bus just as it activated it's RED alternating lights and pulled out the STOP sign.
Now I ask you guys, does anyone want to deal with the cops when some kid or kids gets run over in a situation like this? That will be ALL OVER the news and every chaser that looks like a chaser will be suspect at that point to the police.
Not an unbelievable scenario seeing that we are often just getting chasing going about the time school lets out.
BTW, I would have called the cops on that crap Wed, but by the time they got there those chasers would probably have been in the next county.
Each year 600-700 persons die on Oklahoma roads. Speed and Inattentive driving are the leading causes. How far back do we have to go to get one years of traffic fatalities from storms.........Your reckess driving will send you to jail or prison if someone dies and you can not claim it was for public safety that you were driving reckess.
Well, it's not as if that is the case every, or even most of the chase events in that area, but I'm sure those same drivers pull the same crap. I know we had at least one incident with a crew from Michigan University in a Ford Taurus with all kinds of probes almost running us and others off the road. The kicker that time was, that it was about 9 in the morning, and we were only an hour or two from the target area.
I hope the people in the car are reading this too.Had we been able to get your plates (we couldn't because you were going THAT fast [we have called the cops and had people pulled over for crappy driving before]) I'm not normally one to call people out in public, but driving 80-90 in a 55 mph zone and then passing in no passing zones and having to dive in front of another car because suddenly there is a car appearing in the oncoming traffic lane you are riding, because you are passing 7 cars at a time. None of that is an annoyed exaggeration...
Long story short, storm motions may have been high Wednesday, but I don't think that had as much to do with it as one might think. Some chasers out there just think they need to book it to avoid missing anything.
But Paul.. As for local. state. and federal laws. You are way wrong. I think you need to recertify if you dont even know the Mutual aid laws in Texas, Oklahoma, kansas, etc.. Not to mention federal law.
I am more than certified in Texas plus all surrounding states (since 2002) and by federal law in all 50 as are all Emergency Management agencies.
Maybe they wouln'd have to deal with cops because they may not stop at all...
I would like to add, does anyone want to deal with the fact they ran over kids just because they wanted to catch a storm? How miserable life must be after that kind of event!
http://www.cimms.ou.edu/~doswell/Chasing2.html
There is a sense of urgency I guess in some cases during some chases. I think that promotes some people to feel they can just drive with all disregard for anyone else. That stuff I witnessed was in rural areas, not even in metro areas, where I expect other people to be driving less that great. In fact, my chase through OKC metro, along the Interstates, I didn't even see any driving I would complain about.
Storm Chasing with Safety, Courtesy, and Responsibility
by
Charles A. Doswell III
National Severe Storms Laboratory
If I had a dollar for every time someone has thrown that link in my face I could quit my job and just chase everything.
I think allot of us are excellent drivers, you need to be. Driving thousands and thousands of miles puts you at a greater risk just statistically.Toss in the bad weather and that makes it worse. I left Chicago on May 4th and the moment I got on the expressway a roll-over accident happened just next to me...on the way home there was a horrible accident on I-70 involving an auto carrier that went over the divider...bad drivers are everywhere, not just chasers, people who are late for work, a wedding, street racing and hot-roding etc etc.
I try and stay out of crowded areas. I enjoy meeting people in the field, but I like to be alone when viewing, observing and recording...my own personal ambience lol...I certaintly dont get mad at anyone whos near me tho, In South Dakota a couple people asked if they could follow me because I had radar and they didn't. I had no problem with that. We all have the same rights, it just comes down to ethics used in practicing them.
Anyway enough of myself, and onto the topic at hand. At one point this season, I had the chance to discuss the topic of "newbies" or new chasers with Tim Marshall. I hope that he doesn't mind me using his name, but I have much respect for his opinon, since all of us know the experience, knowledge, and accomplishments that he has gained over the years. My point I tried to make to him is that I get frustrated when many of the "new" chasers recieve bad wraps, because of the idiots that David is describing. Im get absolutely angry over people like that. I know that many of the veterans on this board all had to start chasing at some point in their lives, and were once at a point such as myself, and didnt know all of the vast terminology and specifics about chasing. People that speed, or try to show off, can ruin reputations for people like me, that are just HONESTLY trying to do it the right way. I have spent hours studying, spending time learning how to read computer models, learning the vocabulary, not to even mention how to create my OWN forecasts. It pisses me off, everytime I hear of idiots on the road who try to tarnish the reputation of every chaser out there.
I guess my point is that there are people(like me)out there who have great respect for the people that paved the way to help get where we are today. I hope that these "nascar chasers" can maybe one day get a clue. If there is one thing that I have learned in my brief experience, chasing is not a race. Its about learning to analyze a storm and being knowledgeable enough to make the right decisions at the right time. David, I am sorry to learn about your experience, but I can promise you that there are still some people out there that are trying to learn and do it the right way.....
I wasnt the one who started the argument but I am glad your done with it since its useless.
The main point is EM is totally different than fire/ems/police duties. I dont know of any states that have mutual aid with other states with law enforcement except where pursuits are involved. That is because laws differ in each state and municipality. My case falls under EM agreements bewteen states multiple states signed in 2002 and Homeland Security laws (homeland security act of 2001) which trumps any local laws anyway. I am more than happy to provide ID/badge/authorization sheet which we must carry at all times. They can write me up if they want even but it will be thrown in immediately. I have no worries.
And since I dont use my equipment while chasing anyway this argument is pointless. I have been chasing for 23 years. the last 8 with this equipment and never had 1 issue with any LEO's. In fact I am one of the 1st they will approach for information. They have alot less against me than they do with most of the other chasers who they dont know. At least they know I am a trained responder. We have members who have ben in AES for 40 years and been all over the US with their equipment mounted and we have never had 1 bad issue with any LEO's in any state. Not 1 request to remove them and not 1 ticket. hmmm.
I am just WAITING for a certain few to post on this thread, who are hypocrites. I don't care what TV production you are doing, how big your name is or how much I'm supposed to "respect" you, or if you are some random local who nearly killed me on a few certain days...if you are going to come on here (like threads in recent years) and tell others not to do something I have video of you doing, then perhaps keeping quiet would be your best option. If this is what it has come to, I guess I will just post my war stories about other chasers. I have PLENTY.
I pull completely over on the side of the road, I'm aware of my surroundings at ALL times, I do not ride someone's a$$, pass them (eventhough they are doing the speed limit!), then slam on the brakes nearly causing a 6-car pile up, I don't jump into my car when I see others coming, then nearly t-boning them to be the closest to the tornado, nor do I continuously try to pass them on a muddy road, when I know they do not have 4-wheel drive....and I CERTAINLY do not stop in the middle of a highway. All things I have had done to me...and just this year!
So when you see me give you the middle finger (I know some of you have this on video!), I hope that you will give me credit for your next chasing highlight video, or your next tv show. I think it's funny some of the looks I got this year, by "known" chasers, for something THEY did, or because THEY thought they were in the right. I bet you didn't know that was me, because I drive just a plain old car when chasing.
End of rant. lol.
As for the stop signs, I am guilty of blowing through a stop sign on the backroads in my early days of chasing due to not paying attention. I have since learned to gauge when a mile has gone by and start looking for signs. I find myself more interested in crossroads that have signs that other people may miss though which is probably what David was doing that saved his butt.
We have discussed many times here at ST, the policing of our hobby and while there will probably never be formal laws regarding chasing, there needs to be consequence within our community. I think if you personally experience stupidity you should write the vehicle information down, even if it is just make and model, and detail your experience here like David did. Self policing is all we can do to try to make other chasers think twice about making a bad decision which put their lives and other's at risk.
But I do think that more and more people will be chasing over the coming years. Technology will allow anyone with a cell phone to send video live soon...not next year, but soon. Yikes....
edited for the sake of ST and sanity..lol
But Paul.. As for local. state. and federal laws. You are way wrong. I think you need to recertify if you dont even know the Mutual aid laws in Texas, Oklahoma, kansas, etc.. Not to mention federal law.
I am more than certified in Texas plus all surrounding states (since 2002) and by federal law in all 50 as are all Emergency Management agencies.
Jesse Bass and I are going to chase some next year and broadcast those chases live on our website via streaming video. It will be quite an undertaking but one of the things we feel will be a big draw to subscribers of the site (called tornadochaselive.com none the less) is the behind the scenes aspect of storm chasing. What will be nice is being able to call out any vehicles that are breaking the law AND having them broadcast live on the Internet with (hopefully) hundreds of people watching. There is so much that goes on out there that the avergage Joe knows nothing about and I believe that showing people the REAL chase life will be a big draw.
Anyhow, it is up to the veteran chasers to watch out more than ever. You know deep in your mind that people are not going to look out for you- and it's just going to get more and more crowded out there. Can you imagine how many more people will hit the roads next spring once the Sean Casey/Josh Wurman show concludes on Discovery? I think a lot more people (not millions, but perhaps a few hundred more over the season) will think "wow! tornadoes are cool! I can do that..." Be ready, it's coming.
This has been discussed many times, and it will never happen because there is no way that this can be enforced.
Does this link (http://www.cimms.ou.edu/%7Estumpf/cethics.html) also invoke the death penalty? ;)
And BTW, technically there has never been a "chasing" death. Being a chaser and driving does not a "chasing" death make. Both incidents being spoken of in this thread were traffic accidents.
Chasing involves mostly driving. Both of those chasers were killed on the road (which is the subject of this thread), returning from a chase, so IMO, these are "chaser deaths", or deaths related to chasing.
LOL thank you......I kept my mouth shut for the longest time because I wanted to be nice, but to preach the rules and "chaser code of ethics" to a forum based mainly of dedicated chasers I felt was a little out of line. I feel this issue can never get old, how many of you have said the most dangerous part of chasing is the traffic not the storm. **** happens, if I do my part in being responsible while driving and chasing then anything else that happens is out of my control. Sure I feel P'd off about it but its like beating a dead horse because no body listens as it is. One day something terrible will happen, but for those of us being responsible the odds of that happening to you is very small ;)
There is a joke there but I am biting my lip...lmao
And Bryan. nobody..not even emergency vehicles have the "right" to drive like maniacs.
I only have red/blues not yellows and have never used them chasing except when I came upon a wreck and was the only 1st responder there. Ofcourse at that time the chase is over.
I wouldnt mind having a few yellows to use. when I am pulled over on the side.
These threads are getting so damn old. If it bothers you that much, stop them and pull them outta their vehicles and beat the living sh&t outta them. Otherwise, take it with a grain and move on. Internet threads and threats of "ruining one's reputation and/or standing in the chase community" isn't going to change anything. The world is full of idiot drivers, and several of them happen to chase storms. It's life.
The war on drugs, teen sex, terrorism........stupid chase driving. There are things in life that no amount of wishing away or wanting to destroy will cure. If you're going to campaign against bad chaser driving, you might as well start crusading for bad driving in general, something that takes place EVERY day of the year and effects far more people than just a few hundred geeks who drive after clouds. Beating the bible so loudly just because of chaser driving is indicative of a selfish agenda IMO, when we all deal with it everyday of our lives on every road, whether we're chasing or not.
Jesse Bass and I are going to chase some next year and broadcast those chases live on our website via streaming video. It will be quite an undertaking but one of the things we feel will be a big draw to subscribers of the site (called tornadochaselive.com none the less) is the behind the scenes aspect of storm chasing. What will be nice is being able to call out any vehicles that are breaking the law AND having them broadcast live on the Internet with (hopefully) hundreds of people watching. There is so much that goes on out there that the avergage Joe knows nothing about and I believe that showing people the REAL chase life will be a big draw.
Anyhow, it is up to the veteran chasers to watch out more than ever. You know deep in your mind that people are not going to look out for you- and it's just going to get more and more crowded out there. Can you imagine how many more people will hit the roads next spring once the Sean Casey/Josh Wurman show concludes on Discovery? I think a lot more people (not millions, but perhaps a few hundred more over the season) will think "wow! tornadoes are cool! I can do that..." Be ready, it's coming.
Yes! We need a yahoo task force out there, a storm chaser police! Then when the next moderate risk in Oklahoma happens, we can start a thread about the crazies that were driving backwards at 90 mph to the tornado, with lightbars, skywarn stickers, helmets and goggles. We could get badges and stuff, and only the most responsible chasers could enforce these laws (not hypocritical ones of course). If only people would buy alarm clocks and wake up earlier to get to the storms!
I got a speeding ticket on Wednesday, we even broadcasted it on our webcam (tornadolive.com...similar huh!). I admit, I shouldn't have sped through this tiny town with the whole 2 cars that were driving in it. I don't drive wrecklessly, and I certainly don't speed when other chasers are around, from the fear of getting my name posted on a storm chaser/weather weenie forum. lol. Please, if you see me driving wrecklessly, post my tag/number, description of what I was wearing on here, what kind of food I was eating, and if I had a smile on my face or not...because that will prevent me from doing it again.
In all seriousness, is this going to stop anyone from sinning against the storm chaser bible? I will be sure to report these sinners the next time I chase, because I will feel much better about it when I do...because I never ever, ever speed.
Google, "leading causes of death young people (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=leading+causes+of+death+young+people&btnG=Google+Search)" and check out the results.
That is a pretty ridiculous stereotype. I'm in college, but I only have one year left so I suppose I am almost to the point were I will be vincible. There are just as many old guys and gals out there driving carelessly as there are younger folks, hell, I could almost make an argument that your driving becomes more hazardous with older age. Are there some folks out there chasing who's driving is hazardous? Yes, however pointing the finger at a certain age group of chasers is extremely derisory.
Chasing deaths, no.
I understand what you guys are saying, but a lot of people have trouble making that distinction. A chasing death would be an incident around the near-storm environment.
Not sure where the "threats of "ruining one's reputation and/or standing in the chase community" part came from.
I could care less about one's perceived standing in any community when it comes to them doing things that threaten my life. I'll let the cops deal with them. They can get tickets and then come post threads about how they were mistreated by the cops. (not a reference to the other current thread going about that btw)
And if one of them ever does hit me, they better hope they hurt me good, because if not, 250 pounds of 6'2" angry Texan is coming out with a Texas sized attitude!
And BTW, technically there has never been a "chasing" death. Being a chaser and driving does not a "chasing" death make. Both incidents being spoken of in this thread were traffic accidents.
What if there had been a culvert right there where my tires went off the road. I would have flipped who knows how many times. All I know is, if one of you idiots driving like that out there hits me, you better hope either you or I is seriously injured or dead, because if I am not, I am coming out of that vehicle one mad, 6'2" 250 pound SOB.
When it's to the point I now am more worried about being hurt or killed from other chasers than the storm itself, it's gotten bad. I fully support those OHP that are going out there to target that crap. I might have to talk with a few Texas DPS friends I have and see if I can get the word around them as well, if it isn't already.
I've always been for live and let live in the chasing community. But now it has come to someone's behavior putting someone else's life at risk. That my friend, is a right none of us have.
And they weren't chasing at the time.
But is it ever gonna happen? Not as long as there's still a storm around to chase. Might see it on a cap bust day though :D
QUOTE]
HAHA that was great.
Im chiming in late here but just wanted to add my 2 cents for whatever theyre worth.
I witnessed 2 reckless acts Thursday, one was a similar stop sign experience, back county roads, little to no traffic, my road had no stop signs and the other one did, it was dark and someone driving a black pickup truck [couldnt tell if it was a chaser or not] totaly flew through the stop sign at an insane speed. Luckily for me i always look far down the road of an approaching intersection [if i can] so i slowed down enough to let him pass.
The second was another pickup truck who turned infront of me so fast he hydroplaned and fish tailed. The only reason i slowed down to let him go was because he had a blue warning light on his roof and I wasnt sure if it was emergency personel or not...[ive never seen just a blue light before]
I wont lie im guilty of speeding [sometimes 20 over] and ill pass traffic on a 2 lane road...NEVER up a hill. Sometimes Ill follow a little more closely then normal but thats only to make the pass easier, faster and safer and i ALWAYS signal. Im 25 and have never hit a car in my life [ok i bumped one once parallel parking but thats it]
Some people take it up a notch, I was doing 75 in a 55 and I still got passed a few times, we all want to get to the storms, but there is a line.
I dont need an alarm clock, on big event days like this past Thursday I take the time off work as early as possible and I arrived in my target area 4 hours before anything even got started.
Ive taken a few ride-alongs with me at times and I always give them the speech about how chasing isnt like it is on TV and that they better be prepared for a long boring car ride staring at corn and sunny skies, and that unless theyre really interested in seeing weather and storms...the 5 percent of the chase thats "action packed" isnt worth it.
As much as id like to see a real documentary like that...i too would probably get bored sitting there infront of a tv watching it....I can live with it if im actually out doing it...but i barely have enough time to watch TV as it is.
Everyone wants to make money doing what they love, so i cant say i blame anyone who sells footage to a TV show or news media etc etc. Because I know I would take any opportunity that came my way....but even if I dont...the passion will forever remain and Ill never give it up.
Perhaps a good law would be for chasers to show a certificate that says theyve at leaste gone through a skywarn training class or something. Chasing without certification could be wreckless endangerment i dunno...just thinking loosely.
do i drive fast sometimes?
sometimes...but only if im like on a straightaway...
i never drive to where i dont feel in control of the vehicle...
Besides the potential hazards to other drivers and the general public, which has already been hammered to death, we'll continue to see more horror stories about chasers being profiled and written "bull****" (though legally legit) tickets just for being storm chasers. I don't want this, do you? If you think it was bad this year, just wait until the next few seasons. Sure, we have a safety issue with reckless driving, but don't overlook the black marks that will be left on the hobby with both the general public and LEOs. You can sit back and say that we're beating a dead horse, but I firmly believe the image and good name of the hobby are worth preserving too.
You would make an excellent cop!! Honestly I agree with you, and it seems that process may be underway, seems many have been complaining of being targeted by cops lately. Where I disagree, is stating that younger chasers are the ones to blame, as has been implied in this thread. Its a universal issue, there are middle aged, old, and young chasers alike acting careless. I personally feel that some veterans often force the blame onto young chasers as a vent as they don't like the fact that they are sharing the road with younger less experienced chasers who are seeing just as many tornadoes and I don't blame them, I hate chasers convergences. I see this problem not getting any better before it gets worse, it starts at the top, and the only way we as chasers can make it any better is to practice what we preach and make good examples of ourselves.
A little further down the road I was mostly alone and kicked it up about 5 mph over the limit when I saw some vehicles RAPIDLY approaching me from the rear. The blew by me on that same narrow road like I was sitting still, causing me to end up putting the right tires off the road in the wet mud.
Another incident, one chaser quickely stopped DEAD in front of me so fast I nearly hit them, and I had some distance on them. Why did they stop? To turn into a little driveway. NO SIGNALING THEIR INTENT WHATSOEVER!
The final incident I was approaching an intersection that had a pretty good sized road crossing it. The cross traffic had stop signs (the BIG signs) and my road did not. I saw this chaser car coming from the right and realized he wasn't going to stop and slammed on my brakes skidding to a stop barely missing him as he blew through the stop sign and intersection. Had I not been watching him, he would have t-boned and likely killed me!
I went on down the road but was somewhat shaken up by that last incident, and it was getting late in the day, I finally decided it was just getting too dangerous with that sort of driving I was going to give it up. I turned around and headed back west, noticed a tower going up to the west. I went back just short of that same intersection and stopped, hoping the setting sun would make a good photo with that tower building.
While I was sitting there I saw a group of chase cars come blowing through that same stop sign a that intersection and never even slowed down.
All of these cars were CLEARLY chase cars. Decked out with antennas and/or stickers. All had OK plates, however things happened so fast I didn't get any plates. They are lucky I didn't or didn't have my video camera on. If I recognized them I would be calling you out here right now. You guys know who you are, you could have killed me a half a dozen times with your stupid NASCAR wannabe driving skills.
This crap HAS TO STOP people!
people are stupid like that sometimes.
We have discussed many times here at ST, the policing of our hobby and while there will probably never be formal laws regarding chasing, there needs to be consequence within our community.
Amen...there have been a couple of instances I am aware of where video was turned over to the authorities resulting in at least a warning letter being sent to the vehicle owner. So far it seems calling a person out and using the criticism of peers is not effective. I still prefer to let the officials handle it.
I've just never understood any concern at all on how others may think of you. I'm glad there are some idiots out there acting stupid, if only it points out the other idiots lumping you into that group without knowing you. Works for me.
I am saying they have to be even more diligent in paying more attanetion to their driving than in most cases. Older drivers have the exeperience to handle bad conditions better because we have driven in them just as I say a young chaser is better in wx conditions than john q. public because they drive in it more. It is like comparing somebody from north dakota to a drive in Houston. Who would be safer in snow?? and that coms from experience.
So in short younger drivers have to be even more careful until they get that experience. The driver should do that and that only..drive. not shoot video or watch radar etc...Thats why its much safer to have a chase partner.
I'm not aware of any accident involving two storm chasers. To date I only know of 2 storm chasers who've been killed and neither accidents involved another storm chaser or another person.
Chasers drive in extreme conditions anyway most of the time. You add youth, adrenaline, and bravado and it a recipe for disaster.
Ofcourse thats no excuse and also has nothing to do with standing in the road for pics. I cant wait until somebody leaves $2000 camera on a tripod in the middle of the road so I can flatten it as I go bye smiling and waving. That would make my day.
We as chasers have all sped at times on some lonely back road trying to get to a warned storm 20 miles away. I have even passed gojng uphill but thats when I am with a group and the lead car is already over the hill and calls out clear to pass. but one you know there are other chasers in the area you need to watch the road. If you are the driver thats your job. not navigating, shooting video, etc.. Like a designated driver. You dont have as much fun but your being the responsible one. Enjoy the storm when your stopped. but if your driving in those conditions around other chasers you have your hands full just driving give it your undivided attention.
You know, you kinda nailed it right there Mark. That's exactly how it feels. It's exasperating! Sure, I can call the cops on them, but as I said, they would be in the next county or two by the time any of the cops got to the area.
So what's left? Venting on ST or doing as some suggesting and just quiting. What choices huh? :(
But I also agree that these are different situations than those that started this thread.
In 2005, approximately 6.2 million reported crashes occurred on America's roadways. 7,431 16-20-year-old drivers were involved in fatal crashes. Young drivers have much higher fatal crash rates than other drivers and represent a significant highway safety problem. Motor vehicle crashes are the number one killer of American teenagers.
According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), young drivers are involved in fatal crashes at over twice the rate as drivers aged 21 and older. Teen drivers are far more likely than other drivers to be involved in fatal crashes because they lack driving experience and tend to take greater risks due to their immaturity.
http://www.saferoads.org/issues/fs-GDL.htm
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