OT: Ontario going, going, gone Liberal
Posted on Jan 08, 2009 under xn--zqqs84h3is.com | editAnd Sid Ryan of CUPE fame -- AC's FA union -- is leading in Oakville!
To all those in Ontario, sorry for your luck http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
Yeah, Walkerton, the SARS debacle etc, who wouldn't miss all that...
The people of Walkerton didn't seem to agree with your comment. The Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound riding re-elected their PC candidate with 52.1% of the vote.
I guess the thing I'll miss most about the Common Sense Revolution is the positive changes made to the welfare system (dented tuna cans and all) and the tough policies to reduce panhandling. If you ever walk the streets of downtown Toronto, you'll realize more work still needs to be done to eliminate these nasty bums off our streets! Knowing McGuinty, he'll probably end up building expensive apartments for these people like what Rae did in the early 1990s. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
We've finally become a corporate low tax jurisdiction, and he's going to undo all the good that it brings.
Well the comments coming from the McGuinty camp right after the election is that they expect the PC's lied about the state of the budget~liberal speak for we are raising taxes because the others lied and we didn't know. He was her majesty's loyal opposition and had full access to the "books",so its just a scam.
Funny, Gordon Campbell's right-wing "Liberals" said the same thing, yet went blindly ahead and cut taxes, with devastating effects on the Treasury. Which is worse?
PS We're still waiting for Gordo's tax cuts to "pay for themselves"
Again not true----44% did not vote so those were not a vote against the PCs.
Voter turnout was only 56%? That's absolutely pathetic.
About 56% of eligible voters actually voted. Of those 56%, about 36% voted PC. 36% of 56% is about 20% of the total. That 20% is the group that voted PC. The remaining 80% (100% - 20%) chose against voting for the PCs.
While I agree the PCs should have kept to their Harris roots, the outcome would not have been much different. They had impacted huge groups like teachers and nurses and other front line service workers, alienated urban folks by downloading costs on the cities, wrecking the TTC... In short, there were enough fed up voters who were married to, family members of, folks directly affected and the Liberals were the beneficiaries. Nobody expects many of the "promises" to be kept, other than no tax cuts as the PCs would have brought in -- and further increased the deficit [oh how Conservatives backtrack of deficits when it's them running them up] -- so the real objective was to boot out the PCs and keep expectations low until there is a general recovery. The next four years will have to be dedicated to repairing the massive damage wrought to public services by the PCs. Not much different from that the federal Libs had done for their first two terms.
1. Most people don't like teachers which was reflective of Harris' second win. This was also one of the reasons that the teachers kept their mouths shut for most of this campaign. Most people with kids like the idea of no-strikes for teachers as a way of not being held hostage by these people who last time I checked still receive two months off a year.
2. The TTC has always sucked and always needed more money. I still support it everyday I am in the city but driving is still a nice luxury.
3. The PC's ran a terrible campaign and which resembled many liberal campaigns of the past! (Ernie's crew screwed up on one to many occassions)
4. I will remain quiet on McGuinty and give him a chance but I am not expecting much. This is how the liberals keep their popularity federally as well. Don't promise too much, don't change too much and who can you offend. A very poor excuse for leadership but one that appears to work in this country.
5. Welcome back to an Ontario with deficits and higher taxes with teachers and union reps calling the shots.
I hope he doesn't destroy the economy that is growing in Ontario as a result of his corporate tax increases and for all those smokers, get ready to start buying contraband again as taxes go up.
His party received 70 per cent of the seats with 46 per cent of the popular vote.
Which has been the same story all over the country wherever there's been more than 2 parties. Until (and if) we get proportional representation or preferential ballots & transferable votes (what Australia uses and I like), we're going to be stuck with this.
I'll give them a couple of tax increases and if it continues then I'm Alberta bound.
You know what? Klein (and Getty and Lougheed) are no fiscal geniuses. The main reason Alberta can afford low taxes is by being blessed with exploitable energy. Alberta's fiscal crisis 10 years ago was caused by oil prices falling to below $15/barrel. They're happy with the mid-high 20s (and Hugo Chavez of Venuzuela wants it up to the low 30s).
Each time O.P.E.C. cuts crude production, raises oil and fuel prices extracting $$$ from your wallet, the Alberta government is very secretly smiling.
[B]
The Tories were completely rumbled in Toronto. My riding is one of contrasts - million dollar homes in one corner to ex-mental patients living in rooming houses in the other, with lots of "middle class" areas in between.
I assume you are in Smithermans riding, I lived in cabbagetown till 1 year ago, and did the door to door bit also. I have voted Tory for years but living in inner-Toronto, I realized that,we need major changes and I just hope the Liberal have the guts to make them. I am "ALMOST" happy the liberals won maybe we will get a better deal with Ottawa, and maybe just maybe someone will look at the problems in Toronto.
Why worry about transit, there will not be any office workers left in downtown Toronto in 10 years, to use it. The core is DEAD only one new office tower in 10 years, and the other have 25% vacancy.[And old buildings are housing lofts] Even the banks have moved to the suburbs. Maybe we can put the homeless into office towers soon. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
Also now that i have two of you reading this thread.. A guy just called me to swap UA sweet spots for my AC SE certs.... He want to use them for YYZ-DEL ?? he is UA gold can he use my certs?Can't. He needs to have SE status to use it.
....
Sq.miles of country won by Gore 580,000, won by Bush 2,427,000....
I can forgive almost anything but a defense of George Bush http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
Given that most Canadians have chosen to live in cities, this kind of statistic is a bit irrelevant, isn't it.
I'd agree that the worst part of gov't cutbacks seems to be the dumping of the mentally ill onto the streets, a condition aided by the misguided do-gooders who seem to think these people are better off "in the community" rather than in an institution. The city I've grown up in is being ruined by the number of street-people, beggars, drug addicts etc roaming the streets. All aided by a left-wing city council who can't see the problem, a right-wing provincial gov't that won't help fund a solution and centre-left federal gov't too far away too care.
Not so secret smiles--these are not renewable sources and they should get top dollar for them within a fee market framework,
Yes, they should. But our neighbour to the south would vehemently disagree (ubless their oil companies got the major piece of it).
[This message has been edited by terenz (edited 10-03-2003).]
1. Most people don't like teachers which was reflective of Harris' second win. This was also one of the reasons that the teachers kept their mouths shut for most of this campaign. Most people with kids like the idea of no-strikes for teachers as a way of not being held hostage by these people who last time I checked still receive two months off a year....
5. Welcome back to an Ontario with deficits and higher taxes with teachers and union reps calling the shots.
It always surprises me that so many people are ready to dump on teachers, yet usually only to happy to default their parenting responsibilities onto them. Most teachers I know are dedicated and often struggling to cope with kids whose parents are unwilling/unable to bring up their kids properly!
I give credit to the voters in ON for realizing that cutting taxes can carry a high price. If only the "Liberals" in BC had realized you can't just cut taxes and expect that to stimulate the economy. My favourite quote on this was from David Bond, the economist from HSBC who was let go for criticizing BC Finance Minister Gary Collins tax cutting plans: "After all, Mr. Collins, who was saying there wouldn't be a deficit, is a certified flight instructor and all I've got is a PhD in economics.".
[B] Unfortunately my riding of Beaches-East York is NDP.
To all those who voted Liberal I don't want to hear any complaints about taxes going up(as they said they will do), the only thing we can hope for with a Liberal governement is that they don't keep their promises.
B]
I live next door to you in "Danforth" riding and UGH we also bucked the trend and stayed NDP. UGH and to add to the insult she moved, into the house accross the street.
I also agree that Eves faultered by moving to the centre and not staying the course. Harris was always known for staying the course regardless of the ramafications or public outcry from a very small minority.
It seems to me that Jim Flaherty will be the new leader who will be premier in four years.
Sid Ryan was running in the Oshawa riding (My original hometown) glad to see he lost and PC's held their seats in Oshawa, Ajax-Whitby and Durham. Unfortunately my riding of Beaches-East York is NDP.
To all those who voted Liberal I don't want to hear any complaints about taxes going up(as they said they will do), the only thing we can hope for with a Liberal governement is that they don't keep their promises.
Cheers and I think we can all wait four years. I hope the damage isn't too bad!!
Either way, 80% of the eligible voters felt it wasn't worth voting for the PCs
Again not true----44% did not vote so those were not a vote against the PCs.
To all those in Ontario, sorry for your luck http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif[/B]
Not everyone in Ontario is feeling "unlucky" at the moment, cattle. Many people wanted a change in government...that includes the thousands of people who voted Liberal (46%), NDP (14%), and other (4%) [stats from CBC website].
Of course, you probably didn't intend your comment as a slight against the voting process, but the use of the word "luck" seems (in my mind) a bit unfortunate. Luck had little to do with today's election results -- voters in Ontario chose to toss out the Tories.
(Whether this was a wise decision is, of course, open to debate, and something that we'll probably only really know with the benefit of a few years' hindsight.)
Another way to look at it: Government policies invariably produce winners and losers. For the past eight years, the winners have tended to be business, investors, and to some extent tax payers (at least those with high incomes), while the losers have tended to be teachers, health care workers, students, unions, etc. It makes sense that those who have been the most downtrodden by Harris' "Common Sense Revolution" would want to see the PCs out, and it's not necessarily bad that this has finally occured...
If the Liberals do indeed do things differently than the PCs (and that remains to be seen, of course), they would be creating new/different groups of winners and losers, but one cannot say a priori that this new grouping will be any less just than it was under the Tories, nor that Ontarians are any less "lucky" now than they were two weeks ago.
Alright, enough poli sci analysis, time for some (late night) dinner! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
ml
The majority of street people in this city are not shiftless ne'r do wells as you NeoCons want us to believe, but those tossed out of mental facilities. Yet in the two ridings you both are complaining about, even those with residences voted NDP.
.
OK Shareholder do you live in the INNER city? if you don't then you have no idea whats happening with the homeless! If you do we just disagree.
The HOMELESS is a huge problem its NOT just mental case people its KIDS and young people, who have been helped by "stupid" suburbs people to live on the streets! We are not helping these people we are hurting them!
AND I am serious please be my guest one night, I will drive and walk around the city with you, and I think I will change your mind!
I am serious.
[This message has been edited by why fly (edited 10-05-2003).]
[This message has been edited by fromYYZ_flyer (edited 10-02-2003).]
At the same time, one of the outgrowths of the Canadian federation, and this inability to have legislatures -- provincial or federal -- better reflect the actual voting patterns of the electorate, is the defacto opposition role the provincial governments tend to play
So what you are saying is that about 80% of eligible voters in the province decided against voting for the PCs?
Not quite true because other parties received votes--but the conservative voters sat on their hands and did not vote because Ernie did not have his act together.If they had got out the vote and Ontario is a Consrvative province they would have won.
Each time O.P.E.C. cuts crude production, raises oil and fuel prices extracting $$$ from your wallet, the Alberta government is very secretly smiling.
I agree but I am also sure that a Liberal government would have found a way to run consistant deficits and spend all their money.
well taxes will start going up within the month......... UGH we are all short sighted, they will take our money and waste it. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
A relevant quote from H.L. Mencken: "The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods."
Cheers,
Fredd
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif I thought you pretty well lived here already? Hey, you want to split some of my season's tickets for the OILERS!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
I should take up "tax residence" there and live in YUL near the Habs. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
SThe next four years will have to be dedicated to repairing the massive damage wrought to public services by the PCs.
Split oilers tickets? That's like betting on the Maple Losers. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
Not quite true because other parties received votes--but the conservative voters sat on their hands and did not voteHuh?
About 56% of eligible voters actually voted. Of those 56%, about 36% voted PC. 36% of 56% is about 20% of the total. That 20% is the group that voted PC. The remaining 80% (100% - 20%) chose against voting for the PCs.
OK how about doing this the reverse way.
Of the 56% about 46% voted Liberal thats about 28% of the total. So by your way of doing things [100%-28%] 72% voted against the liberals... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif hows that!
OK we are both playing with numbers,...
All I was trying to point out, it does not give the Liberals a mandate to go crazy with tax increases, LOTS of people did not vote or DID not vote for them. However they did win, and so did BUSH so we have them as our leaders. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
And Both countries made a mistake http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
GOOD NIGHT http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:
Even if fewer people voted, the PCs still dropped 10 percentage points and face two of every three voters being against them and their stone aged policies. The best thing we can hope for is a return to some notions of a Civil Society, now that the attempts to stir class self-interests has failed for the PCs
Man, you do get out in left field when you rage on.
If we are now in classless society than why didn't that bum Sid Ryan win a seat-he's the ultimate people person who takes money from his union members and flies first class with the bourgeois you don't seem to like.
The simple fact is that Conservative voters sat on their hands rather than vote for thast dummy McGuinty because they screwed up in making Ernie leader of the party, which has governed ontario for far more years than any other party.
They will be back in four when Dalton has screwed up the economy and given unions back allt hat excessive power they need to control their masses.
It takes time for the filter down approach to work its way down the chain.When the economy resurfaces they will see the difference in the tax receipts.
Doubtful if these things ever worked. At any rate, the finance minister (a flight instructor) claimed that it'd pay for itself straight away. It didn't. The chief economist for the Hong Kong Bank said it wouldn't and though ultimately proved right, lost his job for saying so.
The provincial neo-Liberals never said a word about tax cuts for the wealthy when they ran for election. It is widely believed to be a sop to their friends on Howe Street. Tax cuts for the ordinary working stiff have been more than clawed back in various fee increases including doubling medical health premiums.
Problem with BC is there are too many "non resident residents" who don't pay any tax.
So really, this tax cut wouldn't have benefited them at all?
He needs to have SE status to use it.[/B]
UGH I guess the other Elite certs sre no good either http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
UGH what you are telling me is I have nothing to trade http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
want some SE certs http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
As much as it might stick in the craw of the right-wingers, McGinty and his team ran a very good campaign
Yes, they did and we give them credit for that;but the fact remains that Ernie did run a poor campaign and lots of his voters sat on their hands rather than vote for McGuinty.He will be a one term wonder unless he veers to the right of the usual Liberal spectrum and follows Paul Martins example of being a tory in red drag.
Are the voters igorant and apathetic?
I don't know and I don't care. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
Stupid they did VOTE NDP years ago!
First some disclosure: I worked on the re-election campaign of a Toronto Liberal MPP. I live in the city but am the co-owner of a business based in the 905 belt.
The Tories were completely rumbled in Toronto. My riding is one of contrasts - million dollar homes in one corner to ex-mental patients living in rooming houses in the other, with lots of "middle class" areas in between.
I campaigned door-to-door in various parts of the riding and the mood of voters on the doorstep was that tax cuts were now *not* the priority, rather it was time to direct more attention to public services. I spoke with many seniors who were incensed about the Tories' planned property tax break for them. As one said "does Ernie not bloody well know that we have grandkids in the public school system?". The overwhelming number of voters I spoke with also rejected the private school tax credit.
One of the reasons I think that voters turned against the Tories was that many people did not know exactly what Ernie stood for. Was he Mike Harris lite? Was he the business oriented guy with the social conscience? Was he a flame carrier for the Common Sense Revolution? Was he "over-handled", i.e. they wouldn't let him be Ernie?
As much as it might stick in the craw of the right-wingers, McGinty and his team ran a very good campaign. It was pretty easy to stay on message when Ernie and the Tories were consistently bringing out the heavy artillery and aiming it straight down (come on down, Jamie Watt!). You also had to wonder about the Tories chances when their "friends" at the Can Taxpayers Federation and the Fraser Inst. pulled out the shivs and knifed them in the ribs. I mean, what would compel the Fraser people to issue their "Ontario is $4B in deficit" report on the morning of the leaders debate?? For those who don't know, both Harris and Manning are fellows at the Fraser.
What will McGinty do? I don't know, but I can tell you that they are very mindful of the fates of Peterson and Rae. The neo-con movement in Canada has been successful in framing and changing the debate so that the days of ever increasing taxes and spending are over. That's not to say that deficits won't be run, but the days of spending $1.23 for every $1.00 in revenue are gone. Paul Martin is classic proof of that.
I happen to believe that the people of Ontario are a relatively pragmatic bunch. Many of us have come from countries and societies where one does not have the luxury of being pragmatic (I'm from Belfast...and you know how well "moderates" do there LOL). In 1995 they realized that some tough medicine was needed and voted accordingly. Enough people still thought the job was not finished in 1999 and the Tories were re-elected. This year the people felt that the Common Sense Rev had run its course and that the need for investment in public services trumped the need for further tax cuts.
So, in concluding this wandering missive...hold fire on McGuinty until he actually starts implementing his programme. He's done the easy bit - getting elected - he now has to start balancing interests etc. So what if he appears dull, nerdy etc. Just him by his actions (real as opposed to imagined).
{Edited to fix a spelling error...but there are probably others...}
[This message has been edited by Hogtowner (edited 10-05-2003).]
[B] Stoney Creek residents traditionally vote like sheep for the party expected to win an election. It's a shame because we lost ourselves a very good MPP who worked very hard for the community. I'm willing to bet all my US Airways frequent flier miles that our newly elected member - the airhead b***h who was a former second-rate CHCH-TV reporter - will accomplish virtually nothing for the community. She was sent by Dalton to run here and not even from this area. Throughout the campaign she waffled on the party's stance on community issues. I doubt she'll last more than one term.
[B]
We're seeing this tactic being used in politics more and more... The celebrity candidate... Regrettably, the majority of people will not follow election issues but will still go and vote... Who remembers "whats his name who helped the community" over "the nice girl who used to work on TV"?
We can look at Arnold in the California recall to this as well.. Polls show he is in the lead...
B
Each time O.P.E.C. cuts crude production, raises oil and fuel prices extracting $$$ from your wallet, the Alberta government is very secretly smiling.
Not so secret smiles--these are not renewable sources and they should get top dollar for them within a fee market framework, of course.
Yes, Alberta is lucky but they do spend wisely pretty much.
The yuppies and other right-wing types who dominate this board should remember that the Liberals under Dalton McGuinty received a higher percentage of the "popular vote" than did the PCs under Mike Harris when they won the last election.
Higher percentage but not higher total votes.Voting in harris's first election was at 66% of the electorate or 10% more than the recent one which is approximately 800,000 votes less cast this time.
I agree but I am also sure that a Liberal government would have found a way to run consistant deficits and spend all their money.
Let's not forget who was in charge when Alberta burned through the Heritage Fund and ran huge deficits. Yeah, I knew it! Getty was a closet Liberal/NDPer! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif
Also, let us not forget who was in charge when Sasketchewan ran up huge deficits and who had to come in to clean up the mess. Hint: members of the booted-out former governing party voted to suspend using the party name for a decade (though it has resurrected itself using the name of its home province).
[This message has been edited by terenz (edited 10-03-2003).]
I am glad to see FlyerAl's Stoney Creek went left. Maybe that will be impetus for him to make that final trip down the road and across the border.
Stoney Creek residents traditionally vote like sheep for the party expected to win an election. It's a shame because we lost ourselves a very good MPP who worked very hard for the community. I'm willing to bet all my US Airways frequent flier miles that our newly elected member - the airhead b***h who was a former second-rate CHCH-TV reporter - will accomplish virtually nothing for the community. She was sent by Dalton to run here and not even from this area. Throughout the campaign she waffled on the party's stance on community issues. I doubt she'll last more than one term.
Unfortunately with the changes to the federal election boundaries, pretty much all of Stoney Creek (federal) will become part of the Hamilton East riding (Sheila Copps). But the good news is that the new riding next door (Hamilton-Lincoln) is rich in right-wing voters. This makes me very confident the Canadian Alliance can win a seat there. So FlyerAl will not be running for the border just yet http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Maybe its time to move back to...Alberta....
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif I thought you pretty well lived here already? Hey, you want to split some of my season's tickets for the OILERS!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
Also, let us not forget who was in charge when Sasketchewan ran up huge deficits and who had to come in to clean up the mess. Hint: members of the booted-out former governing party voted to suspend using the party name for a decade (though it has resurrected itself using the name of its home province).
[This message has been edited by terenz (edited 10-03-2003).]
Actually, most of the 'mess' in Saskatchewan was created by the NDP in the 1970s by way of wreckless expansion of Crown Corporations and the accumulation of massive debt with nearly unconsciousable terms. The fact that the ruling party during the 1980s was able to sustain such without putting the province into bankruptcy was quite a feat.
Also, a substantial portion of the Saskatchewan Party, not only members, but also MLA's and party officials hail from the Saskatchewan Liberal party which was disgraced by 3 of its elected members who defected to the NDP government in exchange for cabinet posts after the 1999 NDP minority government election. Obviously some like-minded PC's have chosen to join because they feel the common-sense approach to governance and a committment to democratic principles and fiscal responsibility proclaimed by the party is consistent with their own personal philosophies.
The next four years will have to be dedicated to repairing the massive damage wrought to public services by the PCs.
You call making people accountabile and having to actually earn their living damage?
The real damage is the way the unions wrap themselves around these same causes and get governments to allow featherbedding and laziness to become the modus operandum.
That is done so the unions can collect more dues and keep lots of their members money to lobby governments without the members permission.
And McGuinty will be a sucker for that BS.
If Sid Ryan were running a government it would be Castro style because he's no democrat, new or old. He just plays at it to keep his union political fund account full.
[This message has been edited by parnel (edited 10-03-2003).]
I eting a student executive from Universite de Montreal, and that was the only thing he knew in English.
Teehee.
Originally posted by msn:
Solidarity forever! Er, what is their song?
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif....
Eves' biggest mistake was when he started to move more to the centre. He should've stuck to the Common Sense Revolution. It was 8 years of great progress. I can only pray the Liberals don't cause too much damage.
[This message has been edited by FlyerAl (edited 10-02-2003).]
Yeah, Walkerton, the SARS debacle etc, who wouldn't miss all that...
no socialist has the balls to follow through on their promises.So you're saying the Liberals will break their promise, and not raise taxes?
Well the comments coming from the McGuinty camp right after the election is that they expect the PC's lied about the state of the budget~liberal speak for we are raising taxes because the others lied and we didn't know. He was her majesty's loyal opposition and had full access to the "books",so its just a scam.
I see the neighbourhood is going downhill. Unfortunately I guess we have to get used to living in a NDP stronghold. In the federal election I believe Layton is running in one of our ridings. Not sure which one.
I hope yours http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Just re-read my original post, and the Sid Ryan reference should have been to Oshawa, not Oakville. And by the end of the night, he had been defeated by one of the few Tories to survive. Means he'll be around to harrass and pester RM at AC for a while longer.
While I agree the PCs should have kept to their Harris roots, the outcome would not have been much different. They had impacted huge groups like teachers and nurses and other front line service workers, alienated urban folks by downloading costs on the cities, wrecking the TTC... In short, there were enough fed up voters who were married to, family members of, folks directly affected and the Liberals were the beneficiaries. Nobody expects many of the "promises" to be kept, other than no tax cuts as the PCs would have brought in -- and further increased the deficit [oh how Conservatives backtrack of deficits when it's them running them up] -- so the real objective was to boot out the PCs and keep expectations low until there is a general recovery. The next four years will have to be dedicated to repairing the massive damage wrought to public services by the PCs. Not much different from that the federal Libs had done for their first two terms.
Funny, Gordon Campbell's right-wing "Liberals" said the same thing, yet went blindly ahead and cut taxes, with devastating effects on the Treasury. Which is worse?
PS We're still waiting for Gordo's tax cuts to "pay for themselves"
It takes time for the filter down approach to work its way down the chain.When the economy resurfaces they will see the difference in the tax receipts. Problem with BC is there are too many "non resident residents" who don't pay any tax.
Voter turnout was only 56%? That's absolutely pathetic.
It makes sense to me in INNER city Toronto homeless people don't vote. And all of Ontario has sent them to Toronto, can we send them back http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
I guess I'm looking more at the leader themself rather than the party as I frankly have no clue what was said as I haven't kept tabs ever since I arrived in Europe.
[This message has been edited by YOWkid (edited 10-03-2003).]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fredd:
[b] Are the voters igorant and apathetic?
I don't know and I don't care. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
Stupid they did VOTE NDP years ago!
Indeed! The apathetic voters tend to be of a conservative nature, and the ignorant ones? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif See my earlier Mencken quote.
That having been said, I would never argue against the healthy attitude of "throw the b*stards out," since all too often we seem habituated to throwing them back in.
Cheers,
Fredd
[This message has been edited by Fredd (edited 10-04-2003).]
the only thing we can hope for with a Liberal governement is that they don't keep their promises.
Don't worry they won't---never have and never wll see a promise they can't break once elected.
Quote by KH:
Either way, 80% of the eligible voters felt it wasn't worth voting for the PCs
Again not true----44% did not vote so those were not a vote against the PCs.
Are the voters igorant and apathetic?
I don't know and I don't care. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
Which has been the same story all over the country wherever there's been more than 2 parties. Until (and if) we get proportional representation or preferential ballots & transferable votes (what Australia uses and I like), we're going to be stuck with this.
from Simpson's column:
Ontarians who care might soon be asked to think about proportional representation and preferential voting. That's because Mr. McGuinty has promised to consult citizens on changes to the voting system.
The Liberal platform read: "After consulting with the public, we will hold a referendum on whether we should keep the winner-take-all voting system or replace it with another." It continued: "Alternatives to our voting system could include some form of proportional representation, preferential ballots or mixed systems."
I hope McGuinty carries through with this, as Campbell and the BC Liberals appear to be doing so far. The only politicians who can initiate change are the ones in power, and if you're holding the big majority it must be tempting to say that you'll use all that power wisely and in the best interests of the people, unlike the "other guys." http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
Probably not wise to get into a political debate ...But...
What good have the liberals done?.
I spent 8 years in Canada and have decided to move out because the country is standing still, there is no growth in industry, no investment from the developing world....
Canada is asleep !.
Its going backward in the world, what is needed is a leader that promotes the country to gain investment...
The USA are turning more to there domestic market for things and are shying away from Canada and the rest of the world....
Its scary to see how backward canada is in the industrial world....great place to live.
Terrible place to invest.
So where is the great Ferrari taking his act next? Ive heard it was OZ. Spoke for an hour last night with someone in OZ who thinks they are going nowhere economically.
You've just lived through a world wide recession and Canada has come out of it better than most other countries.
The left coast of course, where you have been living, doesn't have a clue about economics.
Anyway, good luck wherever you land.Hope she's the right one http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
To quote the former CP slogan:
BETTER DEAD THAN RED!
Oh well, four years after putting up with this garbage McGuinty government and Neo-Conservatism shall rise again. The provincial Liberals always screw up here and never last more than one term.
Eves' biggest mistake was when he started to move more to the centre. He should've stuck to the Common Sense Revolution. It was 8 years of great progress. I can only pray the Liberals don't cause too much damage.
[This message has been edited by FlyerAl (edited 10-02-2003).]
Huge? If you say so, I guess...
Sure, 25% explicity voted for the Liberals, and their cancelling of PC directed tax cuts to business and seniors. But a further 55% appear to have tacitly voted for the Liberal tax policies by not voting against them.
Either way, 80% of the eligible voters felt it wasn't worth voting for the PCs.
Either way, 80% of the eligible voters felt it wasn't worth voting for the PCs.
Originally posted by parnel:
Again not true----44% did not vote so those were not a vote against the PCsSo how is it NOT true? I didn't say they voted against, just that they "felt it wasn't worth voting for the PCs."
All I was trying to point out, it does not give the Liberals a mandate to go crazy with tax increases,On the contrary, given that they explicitly promised to raise taxes during their campaign, it rather does give them a mandate. That so many people didn't vote against them in spite of this promise only increases that mandate.
Neo-con math, and neo-con political philosophy -- 2+2=19 and they don't have a mandtate to do what they said they would do during the election campaign.
I guess it's not surprising they would be endorsed by that ultra-left, commie-socialist group the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.
A relevant quote from H.L. Mencken: "The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods."
Cheers,
Fredd
WOW can't wait to send that off to a few people. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Dalton ran a good campaign. Ernie attacked too much and Howard was too carnivalesque. Dalton's victory speech was pretty good -- however, he took one big shot at Ernie:
To Ernie Eves, I offer my congratulations his 22 years of public service.
AFAIK Ernie hasn't said anything about stepping down from leadership yet.
You all missed a good evening on FT chat. B747 and I hijacked it and talked Ontario politics all evening much to the frustration of several US-based bystanders http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
(Note that I am not a Liberal supporter.)
Yah and some make $70K a year for 9 months work... 7 hrs a day, with a job for life.
Harris stopped the double digit increases THANK YOU!
Rmember the Liberals ONLY got 46% of the vote, and ONLY 56% of Ontario voted, so not that many people LOVE the liberals, or agree with the HUGE increase in taxes we will soon see![/B]
Not the Liberals fault that people can't be bothered to vote. 56% turnout is shameful, it only takes a couple minutes to visit a polling station. Canada should institute the Aussie policy which I believe fines people who don't vote. We should also go back to enumerating before elections.
]So what you are saying is that about 80% of eligible voters in the province decided against voting for the PCs?
Sad isn't it! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:
Well they will pay for it in taxes. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
Now will the feds take more and send it to other provinces?
The NDP could put their whole (not an official party now)7 members in my Tahoe.
The Liberals will give us what we asked for, did not ask for and anything else we may ask for.
Big question?Will the Liberals give party status to the NDP?Minimum is 8 seats.
I guess the good professor's analysis was the tabula rosa used by the PCs in setting various constituencies against one another. It is a long passed notion that only the landed gentry get to vote or have a say in the running of a country. But I guess this gives comfort to the monied class who dispise those who maintain the day to day workings of society.
Even if fewer people voted, the PCs still dropped 10 percentage points and face two of every three voters being against them and their stone aged policies. The best thing we can hope for is a return to some notions of a Civil Society, now that the attempts to stir class self-interests has failed for the PCs. Even if Flaherty had run as leader, the results would not have been much different. Ontario's flirtation with NeoCon policies is over as the majority of the middle class, suburbanites recognized their kids still had to go to schools, they still had to drive each day to the traffic clogged cities, and they had to take their kids and parents to hospitals which cannot cope after the so-called WhizKids of conservatism go in there to redesign our health care system.
I am glad to see FlyerAl's Stoney Creek went left. Maybe that will be impetus for him to make that final trip down the road and across the border. As for the PC paradise of Alberta, it can afford such policies as long as oil prices remain high and King Ralph can intervene with subsidies to keep the restless natives happy. The dogma of the marketplace has resulted in the highest energy prices in the country, and most of NAmerica! Quite something for a province that possesses so much raw energy. A perfect example of a tax on the average person that goes right into the pockets of the wealthy energy-producing sector.
Maybe a complete revamping of the electoral system is needed, and we dump once and for all this first-past in favour of a variant of proportional rep,. This will certainly ensure that there will never again be a PC/NeoCon government in the province, since we now know the support base is extremely limited. That should be the nightmareto be feared most, as it will mean true democracy by the people, and not just by a monied class of people.
And so it begins!!!!!
So you're saying the Liberals will break their promise, and not raise taxes?
Throughout the election campaign, Dalton McGuinty repeated "We will NOT raise taxes" on his TV commercials.
[This message has been edited by FlyerAl (edited 10-05-2003).]
[This message has been edited by pitz (edited 10-04-2003).]
Neo-con math, and neo-con political philosophy -- 2+2=19 and they don't have a mandtate to do what they said they would do during the election campaign
well at least the "neo cons" did what they promised to do and waht they got elected to do--no socialist has the balls to follow through on their promises. And BTW they are not neo cons;pretty traditional PC stuff is what they brought to the table.
Johnny Cretin was going to get rid of the hated GST and got elected to do that didn't he? So he must be a neo con himself.
So don't give us the neo con stuff when the liberals are the least democratic form of government we have. They just lie and cheat their way to power.
[B] It always surprises me that so many people are ready to dump on teachers, yet usually only to happy to default their parenting responsibilities onto them. Most teachers I know are dedicated and often struggling to cope with kids whose parents are unwilling/unable to bring up their kids properly!
Yah and some make $70K a year for 9 months work... 7 hrs a day, with a job for life.
Harris stopped the double digit increases THANK YOU!
Rmember the Liberals ONLY got 46% of the vote, and ONLY 56% of Ontario voted, so not that many people LOVE the liberals, or agree with the HUGE increase in taxes we will soon see!
What good have the liberals done?.
I spent 8 years in Canada and have decided to move out because the country is standing still, there is no growth in industry, no investment from the developing world....
Canada is asleep !.
Its going backward in the world, what is needed is a leader that promotes the country to gain investment...
The USA are turning more to there domestic market for things and are shying away from Canada and the rest of the world....
Its scary to see how backward canada is in the industrial world....great place to live.
Terrible place to invest.
I'm all for some form of proportional representation. Especially if it is applied federally first. It would mean the end of these pseudo-dictatorships we have endured under Mulroney and now Chretien. The system might be based on the British parliament but it sure isn't working that way. Our representatives no longer vote for their constituents interests but are threatened by the likes of Chretien to vote for the party leaders line our face banishment from the party. At least in Britain MPs have some ability to vote with their conscience.
I agree strongly with this comment and with the previous comment by Shareholder in regard to this.
No system will ever be perfect, but it seems more and more apparent that we have one of the last "pure" parliamentary systems,which results largely in a winner-take-all "elected dictatorship."
In my naive way, I take encouragement from the current BC government's seemingly serious plan to set up a "citizens' assembly" to come up with alternatives which would then be voted on by the electorate.
If interested, you can check out:
http://www.citizensassembly.bc.ca/
OK we are both playing with numbers,...
On the contrary, if you read Ken's posts again, you'll see he was careful not to say 80% voted against the PCs, only that 80% did not feel a need to vote that way.
And yes the same is true about 72% and the Liberals, but that just means Ken's argument was accurate and yours wasn't. It's all in choosing the right argument. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
andrew
The conservatives got what they deserve.(poor campaign right from the start)
That is more correct than saying people wanted change. With a turnout of under 50% one can sense that people were just not enthralled by the Liberals either but disenchanted with their natural governing party.
(I even wore a pin from the rep for our local Liberal riding) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by fromYYZ_flyer (edited 10-02-2003).]
NEWS FLASH>>>>Oh, dear, Parnel, what's going on? The :Liberals are leading in Oakville!!!!!!!!
And Sid Ryan of CUPE fame -- AC's FA union -- is leading in Oakville!
Well I do congratulate the liberals for fooling the people into believing they won't raise taxes. They will break that promise tomorrow and keep all the other good things Harris,just like that phoney Cretin did with GST. Anyway democracy has spoken;every once in a while the Ontario Conservatives need to lose and freshen up the party.They did deserve to lose this election
Sid Ryan?? Please!! Flynn is the new member in Oakville.
Maybe its time to move back to Quebec which is actually conservative now or to Alberta.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
a Scottish history professor by the name of Professor Alexander Tyler had this
to say about "The Fall of the Athenian Republic" over 2,000 years
previous to that date.
..................................................
The Fall of the Athenian Republic.
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse (generous
gifts) from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes
for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, (which
is) always followed by a dictatorship." "The average age of the
world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have
progressed through this sequence. From bondage to spiritual faith; from
spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to
abundance, from abundance to complacency; from complacency to apathy, from
apathy to dependence, from dependence back into bondage."
..................................................
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St.Paul, Minnesota,
wrote this about the 2000 election:
Population of counties won by Gore 127 million, won by Bush 143 million.
Sq.miles of country won by Gore 580,000, won by Bush 2,427,000.
States won by Gore 19, by Bush 29.
Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore 13.2 by Bush 2.1 (not a
typo).
Professor Olson adds, "The map of the territory Bush won was (mostly) the
land owned by the people of this great country. Not the citizens living in
cities owned by the government and living off the government....
Professor Olson thinks the US is now between and apathy and complacency phase of
democracy although he believes that 40 percent of the nation's population has
already reached the dependency phase
This seems like the recent Ontario election where McGuinty's liberals and the NDP won their votes in similar surroundings.
By JEFFREY SIMPSON
Tuesday, October 7, 2003 - Page A23
Headline writers had a field day the night of the Ontario election. Out tumbled the clichés: "rout," "landslide," "hurricane," "sweep."
All were correct, in a manner of speaking. Dalton McGuinty's Liberals won 72 seats, to 24 for the Conservatives, and seven for the New Democrats, a result that cost the NDP official party status.
So Mr. McGuinty now basks in a solid parliamentary majority and will be in office for four years, since he's pledged fixed election days every four years.
His majority, however, rests on two unrepresentative features of our electoral system. His party received 70 per cent of the seats with 46 per cent of the popular vote. And the new legislature itself is out of whack, because fewer than half the MPPs got more than 50 per cent of the votes in their ridings.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031007/COSIMP07/TPColumnists/
Quote by KH:
So what you are saying is that about 80% of eligible voters in the province decided against voting for the PCs?
Not quite true because other parties received votes--but the conservative voters sat on their hands and did not vote because Ernie did not have his act together.If they had got out the vote and Ontario is a Consrvative province they would have won.
OK we need a Math FT to give us the numbers http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Ken
Either way I think the Liberals got about 25% of the people, in Ontario, voting to have a huge tax increase! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
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